CBC Radio Interview All In A Day with Alan Neal and Von Allan

2025 Introduction: Way back in September 2010, there was some controversy regarding my first graphic novel “the road to god knows…” being nominated for the Lulu Awards. Alan Neal, host of the CBC Ottawa “drive home” radio program “All In A Day,” was kind enough to have me on to discuss the situation. It’s such a shame that the Friends of Lulu as an organization imploded as a result of this situation. I felt (and still feel) that organizations like this are quite important in the industry and the absence of an organization is deeply felt, especially as the comics industry in North America continues to undergo a great deal of change.

Interestingly, I suspect this situation might have been worse if it had happened 7 or 8 years later. Why? Well, PEN America covered it pretty well in their report “BookLash”. As that report notes, “Yet amid these necessary shifts, some readers, writers, and critics are pushing to draw new lines around what types of books, tropes, and narrative conventions should be seen as permissible and who has the legitimacy, authority, or “right” to write certain stories. At one extreme, some critics are calling for an identity-essentialist approach to literature, holding that writers can only responsibly tell the stories that relate to their own identity and experiences. This approach is incompatible with the freedom to imagine that is essential to the creation of literature, and it denies readers the opportunity to experience stories through the eyes of writers offering varied and distinctive lenses.”

For those interested, I also discussed this on the Rogers television program “Daytime Ottawa”.

You can listen by clicking right here or by clicking play on the player below. In addition, a lightly-edited transcript of our discussion is provided below.

Lightly Edited Transcript

Alan Neal: So I guess you could say one of the most famous gender divides in comic book history is that of Wonder Woman’s home island. And on that island, as you may be aware, men are not allowed. And the all-female Amazon’s rule supreme and Wonder Woman heads off to man’s world as an ambassador. And the constant debate, is the Amazon’s all-woman policy making them stronger or more isolated?

Well, Ottawa’s Von Allan may have stumbled upon the real-life version of the Paradise Island dilemma. The comic book artist’s first book, “the road to god knows…”, has been nominated for three Lulu Awards. Now the Lulu’s are prestigious awards in the comic book industry, based in the United States, that focus on women in the comic book and graphic novel industry, with awards like the Women of Distinction Award or you get inducted into the Women Cartoonists Hall of Fame.

But Von Allan is a man. And his nominations haven’t necessarily sit well with all women in the industry. Von Allan is with me in the studio. Hello there.

Von Allan: Hi.

Alan Neal: Congratulations on the nominations.

Von Allan: Thank you very much.

Alan Neal: We should clarify what you’ve been nominated for. It’s not for being a woman of distinction.

Von Allan: No, no.

Alan Neal: What are you nominated for?

Von Allan: I think I’m nominated... See, I actually wrote this down, because I was having a hard time remembering it. It’s been a very wild 24 hours. I am nominated for Best Female Character — for Marie, from “the road to god knows…” — Let me see… For “the road to god knows…” itself. My wife has been nominated — in a separate award, for Women of Distinction — because she was editing the book and what have you. And the contentious one seems to be the Kim Yale Award for Best Newcomer. And I’ve been shortlisted in that, and no man, as far as I understand it, has ever been shortlisted in that category.

Alan Neal: And from what I understand this, it actually used to not be called Best Newcomer. The term ‘Female’ or ‘Woman’ used to be in the title.

Von Allan: I think! I’m not positive, but this has been part of the problem; finding out exactly what the criteria is. And Valerie, who’s the current president of Friends of Lulu, the organization, couldn’t find anything that specified gender for this award. I believe she took over the organization just a couple of years ago, so she would be ‘in the know.’ And I don’t think they were expecting anything quite like what happened.

Alan Neal: When did you first start to hear that people were upset about you being nominated?

Von Allan: Yesterday morning. I think. It all happened really quickly. I was literally getting a cup of coffee and checking email, and I got a Google alert saying the shortlist was out. And I was like, “yay!” I woke up Sam and was like, “hey, look at this, this is really neat. You’re nominated, too. That’s awesome!” And then I sort of casually looked at Twitter and did a couple of key phrase searches, and then all of a sudden I was starting to realize that, “hey, some people aren’t happy about this. Some people are actually really cranky about this.”

Alan Neal: What were they saying?

Von Allan: I think it was a combination of “why are men being nominated at all?” and then “why am I being nominated in particular?”. A couple of people I know raised an eyebrow at ‘Newcomer,’ “well, he’s not a newcomer. He’s been talking about comics for a long time,” which is totally true, but I hadn’t published. I was trying to show portfolios and what have you. So in terms of self-publishing…

Alan Neal: That part, it’s easy to prove and say, “look, you know, this is actually my first book and so on.” The male-female part, whether men should be included, is a more challenging debate.

Von Allan: It is. It’s tough. I mean, the problem is most cartoonists, most writers, most artists in comics are male. And that’s traditionally been the case. It’s not right. I mean, I personally wish it was way more like 50-50. But you could also argue the same thing about the genres of stories, as comics can be of any genre, but it’s primarily — in North America and in English — superheroes.

So the Friends of Lulu, as an organization, was set up to try to showcase more women in comics, more female-friendly titles in comics. And really to showcase that, “hey, there are a lot of fantastic women working.” And that, to me, is what the award is really all about. Female-friendly comics and creators doing good work.

Getting into the specifics of should any of the awards be open to men at all? Any of the categories? Or, you know, should some be segregated out? I don’t know. I mean, I think in some ways the problem when you do that is the argument then becomes about those choices — who to exclude, who to include, and it mitigates the focus on the awards and the actual books themselves.

Alan Neal: I was following some of these comments that were going on on Twitter. I tried contacting some of the women who had raised concerns and I hadn’t heard back yet. But I did hear back from the head of the Lulu’s, Valerie Dorazio, who you mentioned today. And here’s some of what she had to say.

She said, “I received emails from prominent former members of Friends of Lulu that said, ‘The Best Newcomer Award? A man? And next year, definitely panels.’ And what she meant by the panel’s comment is that a panel of judges, rather than nominations open to the public, would have kept a man out of that category. And I wrote back that the official rules, as far as I knew, didn’t specify a female-only award recipient. And even if it did, that might be illegal because non-profits can’t discriminate according to gender. And further, that I had no big personal preference whether Von was on the ballot or not. He did a comic about strong female characters and our official description of the Lulu Awards as a whole is that the Lulu Awards recognizes the people and projects that helped to open eyes and minds to the amazing comic and cartooning work by and/or about women. So I thought, ‘well, Von was covered.’ Then later that day, I got an email from another person who wrote that the consensus from several of the women that they’d talked to since the nominations was announced was that the category should be for women only. And I guess they wanted an executive decision for me to take Von off the ballot, and I wasn’t going to do it. The furor all just increased from there.”

In fact, and today, Valerie has announced that she’s leaving the Lulu’s.

Von Allan: Yup, she’s resigning as of January 1st, as far as I know. And she’s going to start up a new organization that will be, I believe, “comics are for everyone” for exactly that. Again, part of the problem with this, to my mind, is there are some fantastic cartoonists that are shortlisted. And I’m happy to get some attention of my work, but it really should be everybody getting attention. And that it’s become this, I find very peculiar.

The other thing I find perplexing about is that it’s not like this has suddenly come out of left field, really. The nomination process was open for, I think, about a month. If people had had any quibbles — or even before that — then was the time to do it. There is a board of directors in place, underneath Valerie, as far as I understand it. I could be wrong about that. But it’s not just her with her hand on the tiller holding on to power. And it should be about the art. If there was any type of cry or concerns about this stuff, raise them then. Raising them now just seems kind of odd and defeatist.

Alan Neal: Just got a few seconds left. I just wondered, do you actually want to go to, is there an award ceremony?

Von Allan: I’m not sure. I know the organization had some problems. I believe it used to be tied directly to the San Diego Comic Con.

Alan Neal: Right.

Von Allan: And now that’s already happened this year. So I’m not sure exactly where they’re going to be. I think it’s in California still. So…

Alan Neal: But would you want to go into a room after this?

Von Allan: Sure. I think that would be interesting. I was sort of expecting to get hate mail too, and that hasn’t happened. So I think people are more upset about my gender than the work itself. And I’m not so sure how many of them have even looked at the work itself.

Alan Neal: All right. Von Allan, thanks very much for coming in.

Von Allan: Thank you.

Alan Neal: And congratulations again.

Von Allan: Thanks very much.

Alan Neal: Von Allan’s graphic novel “the road to god knows…” has been nominated for three Lulu Awards. Any thoughts on this? allinaday@cbc.ca is our email address. And Von Allan will be back on our show a little bit later in the season to talk about his next graphic novel, “Stargazer,” coming out in November.

CBC Ottawa's All In A Day

Way back in 2007, I had a very nice chat with Adrian Harewood, then host of the CBC Ottawa radio program All In A Day. This was actually a very special moment for me; I had been a long-time fan of the show and I listened to it quite regularly while I was working away at my drawing board. Needless to say it was cool — and intimidating — to be invited on as a guest. I think I managed to over my nerves pretty quickly and we proceeded to discuss comics in Canada as well as my part in an art show at the Parkdale Gallery (owned and operated by artist James Robinson). The show was titled “Comic Book Chaos” and featured a number of Ottawa-area cartoonists and comic book artists. Sadly, the Parkdale Gallery has now closed; running a gallery is never easy, but I was quite disappointed when James was forced to shut it down.

You can listen by clicking right here or by clicking play on the little player below. In addition, a lightly-edited transcript of our discussion is provided below.

Lightly Edited Transcript

Adrian Harewood: For decades it was seen as disposable art, but throughout December an Ottawa Art Gallery is celebrating comic book art. The Parkdale Gallery is holding an exhibit called “Comic Book Chaos.” An Ottawa artist, Eric Julien, is featured in the show. He’s the artist behind the graphic novel “the road to god knows…” and he draws under the pen name Von Allan. Eric joins us in our studio. Hi Eric.

Von Allan: Hi.

Adrian Harewood: Thanks so much for coming in.

Von Allan: Oh, my pleasure.

Adrian Harewood: Eric, you’ve been invited to exhibit as part of this show. Why do you think comic strips belong in art galleries?

Von Allan: I think for the longest time they weren’t — particularly the art form of comics — wasn’t really considered that important.

Adrian Harewood: Why?

Von Allan: I don’t know. I think, well, I think part of it is that one of the things — one of my picky points — has always been that a lot of people confuse comics as a medium and the genre. And the genre in North America has traditionally been superheroes. And not that there’s anything wrong with that, but that would be like saying all literature has to be romance novels. And there’s far more depth to the medium than that. And because of that disconnect, you’ve had, to my mind, people thinking that superheroes equal kids stuff. It’s not really relevant. So why would it ever be in a gallery? It doesn’t belong there. So it really has no place.

Adrian Harewood: It’s almost seen — perhaps in some quarters — as being too popular, as serving the masses.

It certainly is and was a populist medium, for sure. I mean, there was a time, not really that long ago, where comics were found on every corner newsstand. And that’s where people would go. I mean, the comic book shop as a retail store is really something that’s only come in through the mid to late 70s. And that sort of changed the purchasing arrangement of how comics were consumed. And it also meant that they became more collectible. And it’s the collectible part that kind of bugs me sometimes.

Adrian Harewood: How did you become a graphic novelist?

Von Allan: It’s a weird story. I used to run Perfect Books down on Elgin Street. I was sort of selling other people’s creativity, not my own. And I’ve always loved comics. They’ve always spoken to me. And I was kind of a lonely, insecure kid. They were good escapism for me. And it was totally superheroes I was escaping into. And I never thought I could do this. I never thought I could draw. And for a variety of happy circumstances, I took a shot at it. I just got over that hump and I took a shot. I sucked for a long time. But I started drawing and I got better. And I think I’ve gotten better now. And it was just the leap of faith.

Adrian Harewood: Was it an epiphany? Did you just wake up one morning and say, “I can do this as well.”

Von Allan: I thought I could write. I didn’t really think I could draw. And then I was lucky enough to start meeting a few people who were artists, partially through the bookstore. And I started getting an insight into the work involved, the bad days, the struggle, the struggle to get better, all that kind of stuff. And it sounds so naive. I sound so silly with it. But I really thought that artists of all stripes, not just comics, were kind of hit with a magic wand when they were born. And they were an artist and the talent was always there.

Adrian Harewood: They were made that way.

Von Allan: They were made that way. And if you didn’t have that, if you weren’t part of that secret society, you couldn’t do it. And that’s totally false.

Adrian Harewood: You’ve proved it. You have your your new novel part of your graphic novel, “the road to god knows…” is featured in this exhibit. And it was recently published online. Can you walk me through the story?

Von Allan: It’s about a teenage girl dealing with her mom’s schizophrenia.

Adrian Harewood: Her name is Marie.

Von Allan: Her name is Marie and she’s going through some tough times. The story set in Ottawa. And it’s, I guess you would call it is a “slice of life” story. And what I tried to do with it was tell a story that hopefully resonates, if I’ve done my job right, and doesn’t try to give any pat answers to what mental illness — or in this case — what schizophrenia is. In a way, I think the story might disappoint a few people who — by the time they end this, like they’ve closed the last page — they might be a little bit disappointed that there isn’t a happy resolution. Mental illness isn’t something you resolve in one fell swoop. There is a subplot. There is a subplot that keeps the story going that I think will give it some closure. It was something I thought was important to deal with. It speaks to me personally from some of my own experiences in my life. And it was different than a lot of stuff that’s out there.

Adrian Harewood: I was gonna ask you that question, because you call it a slice of life story. How much of it is a slice of your life?

Von Allan: If you can imagine I’m a teenage girl, it’s pretty close. I drew a lot of my own experiences. Some comic book artists — like Seth and what have you, Chester Brown — have done a lot of autobiographical material. I was a little bit hesitant for a variety of reasons. The main one is that I find fiction lets you play with time a little bit. If it’s pure autobiography, you run into the pesky details of representing real human beings who may not be so keen on how you’re depicting them. With fiction, you can play with it. I made amalgams of different people. I think I made amalgams of myself in it. I don’t consider Marie myself. She’s one permutation of what I could have been or who I might have been. And it is a lot more freeing to write a script like that.

Adrian Harewood: Clearly, this is a story for people to read, to look at. But how much of it is therapy?

Von Allan: I don’t think… I don’t ever want to call it that, but it probably was therapeutic for me. I don’t want to be didactic and getting up on a soapbox, or anything like that with it. I don’t think there are any easy answers. I think in a way — again, if I’ve done my job right — I’m raising questions about mental illness, at least how one family copes with it. That’s probably as far as I’m willing to go. This is just one look at it.

Adrian Harewood: What do you think graphic novels can do that straight novels can’t?

Von Allan: They present visuals in a way that’s different than a film or TV or anything like that. And can be differently nuanced than fiction. I don’t think one medium is superior to the other or anything like that. I love novels and I’ve happily sold fantastic books that I strongly believe in. But I do think that it’s something about the combination of how words and pictures — if you get into “left brain, right brain” theory — works in a way that’s different fundamentally than what film and literature bring. It’s that very difference that makes comics and graphic novels so special.

Adrian Harewood: How did you go about selecting which pages you wanted to display in the gallery?

Von Allan: That was tricky. Partially because in a way it’s almost counter-intuitive to what the graphic novel is supposed to be. I mean, each page flows sequentially to try to tell a story. So taking some of those pages out of context kind of concerned me a little bit. Really, it came down to trying to find images that I thought worked on their own, kind of told a story in and of themselves. A lot of these were sort of splash pages, larger pages that I thought would work okay on a wall. It’s still a bit of a different experience. I’m hoping people like it. It is a little unusual, though, to do it. I think I picked well. We’ll see.

Adrian Harewood: This really seems to be the golden age in some ways for graphic novels. Even in this country, I’m thinking… you mentioned Chester Brown and his great novel “Louis Riel.” One person whom I love, Ho Che Anderson.

Von Allan: Yeah, Ho Che Anderson is amazing.

Adrian Harewood: What is it about? What’s going on in Canada right now that we’re producing so many fine graphic novelists?

Von Allan: Without sounding too trite, I think the medium is growing up. I think that, for a long time, it was that superhero — sort of dogmatic, bam, that’s what it was. People are now trying different things. Bookstores are way more approachable now with carrying them. Almost every bookstore at least has a couple of graphic novels in. There was a time if they were there at all, they were in the kids section. That certainly helped. The talent has gotten a lot better. It’s a lot more varied. We need more publishers pursuing it and trying to find good works, bringing that work to the public and showing it off.

Adrian Harewood: You’re trying to break into a pretty tough industry. What do you think you need to do to succeed?

Von Allan: I wish I had the answer for that. It has been a really tricky thing. And I ran a bookstore! I wish I had more insights than I do. You keep pushing, you stay optimistic. You hope the work resonates. Connections, you really you have no idea. I think sometimes it’s a crapshoot. I will say I wish sometimes there was a little bit more attention to graphic novels with some of the award categories. But that’s a pipe dream of mine right now. That’s not quite there yet.

Adrian Harewood: I want you to make your pitch right now. Why should people go and go and see this exhibit at the gallery?

Von Allan: There is amazing stuff. And it’s not just mine. If you want to see different artwork, artwork that will stick in your gut, artwork that is colorful, it’s bold, it’s doing different stuff. I mean, there’s Ottawa artists like Ronn Sutton, who people don’t even know that are there. You know, it’s magic. There’s some amazing work going on right there. And I think it’s not all just comics or anything like that. But I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you go. Take a look.

Adrian Harewood: Eric, great to talk to you. Nice to meet you. Thanks so much for coming in.

Von Allan: Thanks very much.

Adrian Harewood: Eric Julien also goes by his pen name Von Allan. You can check out his graphic novel “the road to god knows…” at www.girlamatic.com. Some of Eric’s work is also on display at the Parkdale Gallery as part of the “Comic Book Chaos” Exhibit. And the show runs until January 1st.